Yes. I don’t know the relief from the feeling, but I know the feeling.
It’s like there is always a deficit. So even when it happens and it is good and spontaneous and all that, there is still a feeling of it being not enough, because of the deficit. Like you can never catch up.
And maybe they’re in a bad mood. And you know it’s been a while, so you assume that’s why the bad mood. And that makes you less sympathetic towards them and their bad mood, even though that may not even be the actual reason. Because you feel like they think this bad mood is really your fault. And you feel like a failure in some vague way. You feel prudish and unsexy. And it feels too big to address, because, one, you don’t think there’s really anything wrong with you, but you’re pretty sure they think there’s something wrong with you (ouch). But maybe deep down you really do feel there’s something wrong with you. But if there is, there are reasons: your childhood, misogyny, the state of the world, your adolescence, your young adulthood, all the creepy crawly guys throughout your life. The fact that you don’t even know what you like sexually because you’re a straight woman, so you never had to figure it out. It was given to you by the culture fully formed, and you just had it fit yourself to it. And that’s a scary thought, that if you did figure it out, it wouldn’t be acceptable or ok, for you, for your life. All this even though he’s great. A really great guy.
Your comment is so eloquently written and relatable that I upgraded my subscription so I could comment and let you know lol. It really does feel too big to address, because it seems to ask the scariest questions.
I loved that Miranda’s friend mentioned that women need more novelty than men do. I have a somewhat high sex drive, but not for marital sex. It’s so routine, I know he’s going to want xyz, even if we buy a new toy, we’re still the same people using the toy. And so I could go weeks without thinking about it, which looks to my husband like my sex drive is very low. But the thought of quelling sexual tension between myself and someone I’ve never fucked? The wordless passion? That crosses my mind all the time.
Boom. Thank you for expressing this so perfectly! This was EXACTLY my experience in what we (my husband and I) now refer to as the "before times." The good news is that we are now in the "after times" and WOW. What a difference.
That low grade (yet ever present) feeling of always slightly disappointing someone you share a living space with...someone should write a whole book about that.
It look me nearly 20 years of marriage before I stopped living in the shadow of male sex entitlement and fucking the grumpy out of my husband. I finally told him my vagina was not a security blanket, a PlayStation, or a therapist and that he needed to get the latter. My daughter was a teen and seeing her in relationships with men really woke me up - I was embarrassed that I’d done so much work over the years to meet his desire. I had desires too - for emotional intimacy, non-sexual touching, for domestic equity. Around this time we started getting hotel rooms for a night or two - the only objective was talking & fucking. We never remodeled a room, but we locked ourselves in and equity was enacted - we both listened and responded to each other’s desires. Great conversations, great sex. Date night in hyperdrive. Married 30 years now, we no longer have to get a hotel - kids are grown, we’ve downsized, the kitchen is always clean and the laundry folded (collectively). We make time for deep conversation and we make sure sex happens each week. It’s not perfect, but it works - we’ve both built much more desire for what the other most wants (talking or fucking). It took serious & continuous work to get here - as anything worthwhile does - but it was well worth it.
I so deeply resonate with this JLa. I've been married for almost 11 years and I feel so tired of holding the weight of constantly disappointing him. I am longing for DOMESTIC EQUITY and that it's nearly impossible (for me) to have access to any sexual feelings when I am carrying the load of the logistics for 3 small kids and anticipating the big and little details of our future. I feel so much rage about this lack of even-ness and always drawn to stories of woman blowing up their life, yet there's something in me that wants a different way.
Staying in this exhausted, desire-less place or blowing up your marriage aren’t the only options - there is a 3rd way. Getting a break from the kids - getting vulnerable with one another is another path. It takes work - childcare is always challenging, hotels are expensive (but not as expensive as a divorce). The only way we made this happen was making it the most important thing - I’m grateful we did. Good luck, sister - sounds like you are in the thick of it.
Sounds like you are in the "after times" too!! We've been married 21 years and broke through 3 years ago. We didn't do hotel rooms, but lots of talkng, lots of fucking, lots of PLAYING, and more talking. We now do a podcast about it--we actually bookclub All Fours chapter by chapter talking about it! It's called Work From Bed Friday!
It's an expansive gaping neediness that can never be fulfilled. That just makes me rebel and want more time to myself. Is this because men don't have friends like we do? So they place so many of their needs on just one relationship?
not relationship, feeling! i think most straight man have no good access to their feelings and sublimate anything under the headline "horny". they might be cuddly or hangry or just bored or disappointed with something, work? but they think just this one thing: she needs to help me with whatever this is that i'm feeling, now! If she doesn't she's being mean to me and i don't deserve it.
I think this relates so much to the economics of partnership (especially — in my mind — to marriage), and the fact that there is always a bartering of power or currency (financial, emotional, physical). the strange thing about this though is we pretend like it’s not the case and we praise people for not keeping score, but I’d guess, we’re all secretly accounting for who’s owed what.
I have written about this in an article titled "Heterosexual Marriage is a Form of Sex Work". I also wrote about it in one of your Substack chats in response to another subscriber's question: What is Marriage? I'll post my answer below, but my basic premise is that within heterosexual marriage, there's an unspoken exchange of sex (provided by the woman) for love, financial protection and physical safety (provided by the man). Patriarchal capitalism reinforces this dynamic as women earn less than men over their lifetimes. Women are penalized financially for having children while men see an increase in status and agency when they become fathers. Someone always gets defensive and has to tell me how equal and non-transactional their marriage/partnership is. In advance, let me say, I believe you! This is a systemic issue.
What is marriage?
"Marriage is a legal contract between two families. It’s an exchange of a marriageable daughter for something of equal value, usually cash, gold, livestock, etc. The daughter will go and live with her new family as their son’s wife. She will bear his children, take care of his house, and satisfy him sexually at his pleasure.
While many Western countries see marriage as a love match between two people who choose each other, women in heterosexual marriages often do take on the same roles as women in arranged marriages. Married women are not usually financially independent, especially because they do most of the emotional and physical labor within a household without monetary compensation.
In terms of longevity, married women don’t live as long and suffer more with physical and emotional well being. Statistically, you may see data indicating that married women live longer than those who are single, but these studies to not adjust for domestic violence stats within relationships.
Heterosexual marriage doesn’t benefit women’s quality or quantity of life in any way. It’s marketed to women as a fantasy—finding Prince Charming and living happily ever after because otherwise I’m not sure that the institution of marriage would survive.
I usually get a lot of backlash from both men and women who want to justify their wonderfully equitable marriage to me. My answer is always the same. I’m not talking about anyone’s individual marriage, I’m talking about a system within a culture that does not benefit women. It’s beyond the scope of what any two people can change to make the system equal and equitable."
I won't argue that point, but I know a lot of people will object because modern American heterosexual marriage has been rebranded as two people choosing each other. Many women are uncomfortable acknowledging that the system doesn't see them as full human beings, let alone equal marital partners. It sucks that on top of all this, the friend who left the voice message feels bad for causing her partner to be disappointed for years.
That rebranding began in the 19th century, according to historians of marriage. It was called the "companionate marriage." You can find its ideology in Jane Austen, George Eliot, etc. Some people probably do achieve these egalitarian marriages, but they are the minority I think. It's interesting that Jane Austen novels end with the wedding. There is no word of what happens when Elizabeth or Emma gives birth.
A lot of people enter into marriage assuming that they can make the institution reflect their own values, but the power of the institution itself is so great that resistance to patriarchy becomes futile. People outside the marriage enforce the idea that women are subservient to their husbands. This happened to me, and it was a shock: the pressure to conform to patriarchal marriage norms came from my family and tradespeople who would not let me get things fixed without my husband's permission.
The pressure to conform gets worse when a baby comes. It seems "natural" for a breastfeeding mother to do ALL the childcare, not just the breastfeeding. A pattern gets set. The man kind of likes it: who wants to deal with shitty diapers? His employer wants him back at work the day after the birth (in the US). They need the money. There's no paternity leave. Or paid maternity leave. The system forces the mother into the role of a penniless slave.
"A lot of people enter into marriage assuming that they can make the institution reflect their own values, but the power of the institution itself is so great that resistance to patriarchy becomes futile."
Yes, the institution is corrupt and, while individual results may vary, it is inherently limited by its origins.
What blows my mind is my friends in hetero marriages who have financial independence, make more money than their partners, and still feel the same pressure, guilt, shame, etc. described in the voice memo about meeting their partner’s seeming sexual desires. In such examples the patriarchal origins of marriage are most clearly exposed.
For me, in this moment, my role has reversed with my partner. Now he never wants to, and I want to more often.
He has withdrawn a bit physically and I can’t stop thinking about how I would behave when I did not want to send any “Yea, tonight!” signals.
Feels a bit like I am getting a dose of my own medicine. It feels awful - should have done more to keep the lines of communication open, instead of sitting on the far end of the couch.
I wish I felt bad because I thought I was disappointing my partner. Yes - I am married and having this exact same experience. (For some reason, I'm more keen to masturbating than to engaging in 'having sex' with my partner, but that's probably a different issue). Most of the time, I manage to think, "well, that's his problem, I shouldn't be in charge/be responsible for his pleasure" - I could definitely take care of mine if left alone!). But sometimes, it's the questioning that gets to me: why are things like this now?, and do they have to stay this way (is it a phase?), and -is it 'the cliff' for me? Is my body to blame even though there is nothing it can do to spare me of the downfall.
An so I keep living one day at a time, relishing the good parts, getting busy with work and parenting, waiting it out as I suspect is all indomitable. But All Fours made it me feel less alone and more seen, just above the water.
It’s not really a “feeling bad” per se for me. It’s more like an awareness that he wants more than I want to give because I need my space, freedom, time with friends, time to read, time to just be. Then, a feeling of annoyance & subtle pressure for the sake of the marriage. Then, a feeling of rebellion & questioning if marriage is worth this. I could go on
Interesting to talk openly about the burden of other’s neediness. I can say this is an issue in queer partnerships too, obviously not just hetero ones…I see it as a side effect of society where we’re taught to conform to stability and monogamy (and not brave / energetic enough to reinvent)
Yes! This conversation is often explicitly a heterosexual one, with gender roles, patriarchy, entitlement, etc. playing a big part in the dynamic, but it happens in queer relationships too, and it's difficult to find models for how to work through it when male privilege isn't playing a role.
I also agree that monogamy is a real barrier in many ways. If one person loves sex and the other doesn't, why do we insist on monogamy? It makes no sense to me (as someone who has been in monogamous relationships that suffered from this and is now poly).
The pressure to understand a grapple with what we do for another to provide comfort and security and love and intimacy to someone we understand and care for deeply and what some of these actions and "doing" robs from our core self who would not be doing them if not for this other person. It doesn't feel easy to know how to know when to stop doing, when to pull back and when to give.
And it also feels like small, continual acts of service to another that are not ever what we really want will over time erode something, either (worse imho) our sense of self; or the relationship with that person when we realize we have built a whole thing based on not doing what our core self wants, needs and feels.
The part of your friend’s message that really pings and stings for me is: “what are the psychological implications of living with someone who is always in this disappointed or maybe even sad state because they're not getting enough from you”… and personally, I don’t think this is about sex. As other people have mentioned, it’s about emotional labor and why are women (or more feminine-leaning people) still allowing — forcing? coercing? — themselves to take on that work for men (or more masculine-leaning people). It’s a very co-dependent and unhealthy dynamic that typically goes back to childhood, surprise surprise.
As the child of an alcoholic, I was basically raised to (1) always tend to my parent’s emotions, which were usually sadness and depression, and (2) try and somehow fix/soothe them to ensure my own safety and stability. It took many, many years and the breakdown of my marriage (to an addict) for me to finally stop doing that… it’s a hard habit to break. And the worst part for many of us who are involved in these dynamics is that other people, including best friends and parents, often don’t seem to notice that the cause of our despair and frustration — and eventual exhaustion and emptied-out-ness — is because we’ve been performing this “service”, which is ultimately unhealthy for both people in the relationship, because they’re doing it in their own relationships, too! It’s so common and also so so painful and draining.
And to bring it back to your friend’s pussy since you titled it that: maybe the worst part about this dynamic for women is that they learn how to see and use ugh their pussies as a tool to perform this “service” instead of as a source of guidance, power, and pleasure…
Yes, to all of this. I'm always drawn to stories of woman blowing up their lives and don't know if what's keeping me from doing it is fear or my own intimacy barriers. I've never had a huge sex drive but being the source of someone's constant disappointment is a fucking burden to carry. We've briefly tried an open marriage but it wasn't for me (mostly because I have zero longing to pursue another relationship). I long for more independence, for domestic equity (as Jla wrote), and for a space where my deep rage and sadness can be held (rage and sadness directed at the patriarchy).
At age 70 I am finally free. I live alone and don't have to serve anybody, sexually or otherwise.
I was in three long relationships, and all three of them eventually felt like prison: I was doing and serving a lot, and getting little back. The last relationship was downright scary at times. I think I might not have gotten fed up with sex (and other services I provided) if I had been treated more respectfully, like an equal human. What I hate is doing things for people who feel entitled to those services, whether it's cleaning, cooking or sex. People who then treat you disrespectfully!
It makes no sense. Don't people get it that if you want other people to do nice things for you, it's a good idea to treat them nicely? No. A lot of people don't get that. A lot of people seem to think that to get these services, they should SCARE and INTIMIDATE you.
This week I'm at my grandparents' old house for a kind of family reunion. I got here first, and I had to do a lot of vacuuming of bugs, spider webs, etc. I had to make sure all the beds had clean sheets and blankets. I had to go grocery shopping. I had to make sure the finicky heating system was working, because it suddenly got cold. I had to buy a comforter for one bed. While doing all these things, I realized that certain people in my family--more than half--would not even notice I had done these things, much less thank me. I told two of them in an email that I was cleaning and getting the rooms ready. Neither one wrote back to thank me.
The reason I had to do all this is that the others are arriving late in the evening and would not have time to vacuum and fix up their own rooms, naturally. Some of these people do a lot for my elderly dad and so I put extra attention into making sure their room was nice. For the grumpy ones, not so much. Then I thought, "I wonder if mean people realize that their strategy is not working. That is, don't they realize that we cut corners and do as little as possible for them because they yell at us and insult us fairly often?"
The same goes for sexual romantic relationships. I would probably have continued taking care of the man I was with ten years ago if he had not been so mean. As it happened, I left, and a few years later, he developed cancer and died more or less alone in a hospice by a freeway in Houston.
A friend of mine just told me that she and her husband of 14 years have decided to go Poly. And when they did, the most surprising thing happened to her sex drive. It exploded. Not because of titillating conversation, or jealousy, (because it wasn’t her idea), or even because the new partner was queer and wanted to fuck her too. It exploded because suddenly, her husband wasn’t expecting to have all of his emotional needs met exclusively by her anymore.
She was able to see him for who he actually is again because he wasn’t in a "disappointed/sad state" all the time. This emotional break from service also gave her the space to get back touch with her own needs, instead of resenting him which killed her sex drive. Granted, polyamory isn’t for everyone, but when it works, it does highlight the truth that men are conditioned to expect everything from their partners, and women are conditioned to provide it, and how this paradigm fucks everything up for both of them.
It’s a terrible thing that straight guys don’t have friends that they can actually talk about their feelings with though. Maybe if they did, their dicks wouldn’t have to be their main emotional focal point? Imagine if women did that same thing with their female friends? In order to really connect or share a feeling, we’d need to be touching each other first?
Yes. I don’t know the relief from the feeling, but I know the feeling.
It’s like there is always a deficit. So even when it happens and it is good and spontaneous and all that, there is still a feeling of it being not enough, because of the deficit. Like you can never catch up.
And maybe they’re in a bad mood. And you know it’s been a while, so you assume that’s why the bad mood. And that makes you less sympathetic towards them and their bad mood, even though that may not even be the actual reason. Because you feel like they think this bad mood is really your fault. And you feel like a failure in some vague way. You feel prudish and unsexy. And it feels too big to address, because, one, you don’t think there’s really anything wrong with you, but you’re pretty sure they think there’s something wrong with you (ouch). But maybe deep down you really do feel there’s something wrong with you. But if there is, there are reasons: your childhood, misogyny, the state of the world, your adolescence, your young adulthood, all the creepy crawly guys throughout your life. The fact that you don’t even know what you like sexually because you’re a straight woman, so you never had to figure it out. It was given to you by the culture fully formed, and you just had it fit yourself to it. And that’s a scary thought, that if you did figure it out, it wouldn’t be acceptable or ok, for you, for your life. All this even though he’s great. A really great guy.
Thank you so much for that! Feeling something so similar…
Your comment is so eloquently written and relatable that I upgraded my subscription so I could comment and let you know lol. It really does feel too big to address, because it seems to ask the scariest questions.
I loved that Miranda’s friend mentioned that women need more novelty than men do. I have a somewhat high sex drive, but not for marital sex. It’s so routine, I know he’s going to want xyz, even if we buy a new toy, we’re still the same people using the toy. And so I could go weeks without thinking about it, which looks to my husband like my sex drive is very low. But the thought of quelling sexual tension between myself and someone I’ve never fucked? The wordless passion? That crosses my mind all the time.
I too upgraded to comment! This is so true it was like the words smacked me in the face. Your comment as well is so true.
The wordless passion, yes that’s it
You can NEVER catch up, it’s never enough!
Exactly! The deficit is tooooooo big!
You nailed it!
“It was given to you by the culture fully formed, and you just had it fit yourself to it” … I can’t stop thinking about how exactly right this is.
Sounds like it’s your turn to write a book now…
Absofuckinglutely!
Yes. Thank you for articulating!
Boom. Thank you for expressing this so perfectly! This was EXACTLY my experience in what we (my husband and I) now refer to as the "before times." The good news is that we are now in the "after times" and WOW. What a difference.
That low grade (yet ever present) feeling of always slightly disappointing someone you share a living space with...someone should write a whole book about that.
It look me nearly 20 years of marriage before I stopped living in the shadow of male sex entitlement and fucking the grumpy out of my husband. I finally told him my vagina was not a security blanket, a PlayStation, or a therapist and that he needed to get the latter. My daughter was a teen and seeing her in relationships with men really woke me up - I was embarrassed that I’d done so much work over the years to meet his desire. I had desires too - for emotional intimacy, non-sexual touching, for domestic equity. Around this time we started getting hotel rooms for a night or two - the only objective was talking & fucking. We never remodeled a room, but we locked ourselves in and equity was enacted - we both listened and responded to each other’s desires. Great conversations, great sex. Date night in hyperdrive. Married 30 years now, we no longer have to get a hotel - kids are grown, we’ve downsized, the kitchen is always clean and the laundry folded (collectively). We make time for deep conversation and we make sure sex happens each week. It’s not perfect, but it works - we’ve both built much more desire for what the other most wants (talking or fucking). It took serious & continuous work to get here - as anything worthwhile does - but it was well worth it.
I so deeply resonate with this JLa. I've been married for almost 11 years and I feel so tired of holding the weight of constantly disappointing him. I am longing for DOMESTIC EQUITY and that it's nearly impossible (for me) to have access to any sexual feelings when I am carrying the load of the logistics for 3 small kids and anticipating the big and little details of our future. I feel so much rage about this lack of even-ness and always drawn to stories of woman blowing up their life, yet there's something in me that wants a different way.
Staying in this exhausted, desire-less place or blowing up your marriage aren’t the only options - there is a 3rd way. Getting a break from the kids - getting vulnerable with one another is another path. It takes work - childcare is always challenging, hotels are expensive (but not as expensive as a divorce). The only way we made this happen was making it the most important thing - I’m grateful we did. Good luck, sister - sounds like you are in the thick of it.
sounds really lovely actually and worth the fucking wait.
I never thought I’d be the person taking advice from a stranger on the internet, but JLa, this is excellent advice!
Sounds like you are in the "after times" too!! We've been married 21 years and broke through 3 years ago. We didn't do hotel rooms, but lots of talkng, lots of fucking, lots of PLAYING, and more talking. We now do a podcast about it--we actually bookclub All Fours chapter by chapter talking about it! It's called Work From Bed Friday!
It's an expansive gaping neediness that can never be fulfilled. That just makes me rebel and want more time to myself. Is this because men don't have friends like we do? So they place so many of their needs on just one relationship?
not relationship, feeling! i think most straight man have no good access to their feelings and sublimate anything under the headline "horny". they might be cuddly or hangry or just bored or disappointed with something, work? but they think just this one thing: she needs to help me with whatever this is that i'm feeling, now! If she doesn't she's being mean to me and i don't deserve it.
I think this relates so much to the economics of partnership (especially — in my mind — to marriage), and the fact that there is always a bartering of power or currency (financial, emotional, physical). the strange thing about this though is we pretend like it’s not the case and we praise people for not keeping score, but I’d guess, we’re all secretly accounting for who’s owed what.
Interesting.
I have written about this in an article titled "Heterosexual Marriage is a Form of Sex Work". I also wrote about it in one of your Substack chats in response to another subscriber's question: What is Marriage? I'll post my answer below, but my basic premise is that within heterosexual marriage, there's an unspoken exchange of sex (provided by the woman) for love, financial protection and physical safety (provided by the man). Patriarchal capitalism reinforces this dynamic as women earn less than men over their lifetimes. Women are penalized financially for having children while men see an increase in status and agency when they become fathers. Someone always gets defensive and has to tell me how equal and non-transactional their marriage/partnership is. In advance, let me say, I believe you! This is a systemic issue.
What is marriage?
"Marriage is a legal contract between two families. It’s an exchange of a marriageable daughter for something of equal value, usually cash, gold, livestock, etc. The daughter will go and live with her new family as their son’s wife. She will bear his children, take care of his house, and satisfy him sexually at his pleasure.
While many Western countries see marriage as a love match between two people who choose each other, women in heterosexual marriages often do take on the same roles as women in arranged marriages. Married women are not usually financially independent, especially because they do most of the emotional and physical labor within a household without monetary compensation.
In terms of longevity, married women don’t live as long and suffer more with physical and emotional well being. Statistically, you may see data indicating that married women live longer than those who are single, but these studies to not adjust for domestic violence stats within relationships.
Heterosexual marriage doesn’t benefit women’s quality or quantity of life in any way. It’s marketed to women as a fantasy—finding Prince Charming and living happily ever after because otherwise I’m not sure that the institution of marriage would survive.
I usually get a lot of backlash from both men and women who want to justify their wonderfully equitable marriage to me. My answer is always the same. I’m not talking about anyone’s individual marriage, I’m talking about a system within a culture that does not benefit women. It’s beyond the scope of what any two people can change to make the system equal and equitable."
Let's just come clean and call it a form of slavery. At least sex workers get paid in MONEY.
I won't argue that point, but I know a lot of people will object because modern American heterosexual marriage has been rebranded as two people choosing each other. Many women are uncomfortable acknowledging that the system doesn't see them as full human beings, let alone equal marital partners. It sucks that on top of all this, the friend who left the voice message feels bad for causing her partner to be disappointed for years.
That rebranding began in the 19th century, according to historians of marriage. It was called the "companionate marriage." You can find its ideology in Jane Austen, George Eliot, etc. Some people probably do achieve these egalitarian marriages, but they are the minority I think. It's interesting that Jane Austen novels end with the wedding. There is no word of what happens when Elizabeth or Emma gives birth.
A lot of people enter into marriage assuming that they can make the institution reflect their own values, but the power of the institution itself is so great that resistance to patriarchy becomes futile. People outside the marriage enforce the idea that women are subservient to their husbands. This happened to me, and it was a shock: the pressure to conform to patriarchal marriage norms came from my family and tradespeople who would not let me get things fixed without my husband's permission.
The pressure to conform gets worse when a baby comes. It seems "natural" for a breastfeeding mother to do ALL the childcare, not just the breastfeeding. A pattern gets set. The man kind of likes it: who wants to deal with shitty diapers? His employer wants him back at work the day after the birth (in the US). They need the money. There's no paternity leave. Or paid maternity leave. The system forces the mother into the role of a penniless slave.
"A lot of people enter into marriage assuming that they can make the institution reflect their own values, but the power of the institution itself is so great that resistance to patriarchy becomes futile."
Yes! Exactly this 👆.
Yes, the institution is corrupt and, while individual results may vary, it is inherently limited by its origins.
What blows my mind is my friends in hetero marriages who have financial independence, make more money than their partners, and still feel the same pressure, guilt, shame, etc. described in the voice memo about meeting their partner’s seeming sexual desires. In such examples the patriarchal origins of marriage are most clearly exposed.
For me, in this moment, my role has reversed with my partner. Now he never wants to, and I want to more often.
He has withdrawn a bit physically and I can’t stop thinking about how I would behave when I did not want to send any “Yea, tonight!” signals.
Feels a bit like I am getting a dose of my own medicine. It feels awful - should have done more to keep the lines of communication open, instead of sitting on the far end of the couch.
I wish I felt bad because I thought I was disappointing my partner. Yes - I am married and having this exact same experience. (For some reason, I'm more keen to masturbating than to engaging in 'having sex' with my partner, but that's probably a different issue). Most of the time, I manage to think, "well, that's his problem, I shouldn't be in charge/be responsible for his pleasure" - I could definitely take care of mine if left alone!). But sometimes, it's the questioning that gets to me: why are things like this now?, and do they have to stay this way (is it a phase?), and -is it 'the cliff' for me? Is my body to blame even though there is nothing it can do to spare me of the downfall.
An so I keep living one day at a time, relishing the good parts, getting busy with work and parenting, waiting it out as I suspect is all indomitable. But All Fours made it me feel less alone and more seen, just above the water.
It’s not really a “feeling bad” per se for me. It’s more like an awareness that he wants more than I want to give because I need my space, freedom, time with friends, time to read, time to just be. Then, a feeling of annoyance & subtle pressure for the sake of the marriage. Then, a feeling of rebellion & questioning if marriage is worth this. I could go on
Interesting to talk openly about the burden of other’s neediness. I can say this is an issue in queer partnerships too, obviously not just hetero ones…I see it as a side effect of society where we’re taught to conform to stability and monogamy (and not brave / energetic enough to reinvent)
Yes! This conversation is often explicitly a heterosexual one, with gender roles, patriarchy, entitlement, etc. playing a big part in the dynamic, but it happens in queer relationships too, and it's difficult to find models for how to work through it when male privilege isn't playing a role.
I also agree that monogamy is a real barrier in many ways. If one person loves sex and the other doesn't, why do we insist on monogamy? It makes no sense to me (as someone who has been in monogamous relationships that suffered from this and is now poly).
Energetic enough! So true! 🤣
This came up in “All Fours” too and I absolutely relate. It’s not just about sex either. It’s about so much more. It’s exhausting.
so. much. more.
Right?!
The pressure to understand a grapple with what we do for another to provide comfort and security and love and intimacy to someone we understand and care for deeply and what some of these actions and "doing" robs from our core self who would not be doing them if not for this other person. It doesn't feel easy to know how to know when to stop doing, when to pull back and when to give.
And it also feels like small, continual acts of service to another that are not ever what we really want will over time erode something, either (worse imho) our sense of self; or the relationship with that person when we realize we have built a whole thing based on not doing what our core self wants, needs and feels.
Yes. And this reminds me of those times when you have the sex you don’t feel like having and during it, you feel resentful. And you are wondering,
to what extent you were kinda coerced? Or did you coerce yourself? And that feels even worse.
Yes. This. I now recognize years of sex like this with my partner as being not just coerced but violating. It's a terrible realization.
The part of your friend’s message that really pings and stings for me is: “what are the psychological implications of living with someone who is always in this disappointed or maybe even sad state because they're not getting enough from you”… and personally, I don’t think this is about sex. As other people have mentioned, it’s about emotional labor and why are women (or more feminine-leaning people) still allowing — forcing? coercing? — themselves to take on that work for men (or more masculine-leaning people). It’s a very co-dependent and unhealthy dynamic that typically goes back to childhood, surprise surprise.
As the child of an alcoholic, I was basically raised to (1) always tend to my parent’s emotions, which were usually sadness and depression, and (2) try and somehow fix/soothe them to ensure my own safety and stability. It took many, many years and the breakdown of my marriage (to an addict) for me to finally stop doing that… it’s a hard habit to break. And the worst part for many of us who are involved in these dynamics is that other people, including best friends and parents, often don’t seem to notice that the cause of our despair and frustration — and eventual exhaustion and emptied-out-ness — is because we’ve been performing this “service”, which is ultimately unhealthy for both people in the relationship, because they’re doing it in their own relationships, too! It’s so common and also so so painful and draining.
And to bring it back to your friend’s pussy since you titled it that: maybe the worst part about this dynamic for women is that they learn how to see and use ugh their pussies as a tool to perform this “service” instead of as a source of guidance, power, and pleasure…
Yes, to all of this. I'm always drawn to stories of woman blowing up their lives and don't know if what's keeping me from doing it is fear or my own intimacy barriers. I've never had a huge sex drive but being the source of someone's constant disappointment is a fucking burden to carry. We've briefly tried an open marriage but it wasn't for me (mostly because I have zero longing to pursue another relationship). I long for more independence, for domestic equity (as Jla wrote), and for a space where my deep rage and sadness can be held (rage and sadness directed at the patriarchy).
At age 70 I am finally free. I live alone and don't have to serve anybody, sexually or otherwise.
I was in three long relationships, and all three of them eventually felt like prison: I was doing and serving a lot, and getting little back. The last relationship was downright scary at times. I think I might not have gotten fed up with sex (and other services I provided) if I had been treated more respectfully, like an equal human. What I hate is doing things for people who feel entitled to those services, whether it's cleaning, cooking or sex. People who then treat you disrespectfully!
It makes no sense. Don't people get it that if you want other people to do nice things for you, it's a good idea to treat them nicely? No. A lot of people don't get that. A lot of people seem to think that to get these services, they should SCARE and INTIMIDATE you.
This week I'm at my grandparents' old house for a kind of family reunion. I got here first, and I had to do a lot of vacuuming of bugs, spider webs, etc. I had to make sure all the beds had clean sheets and blankets. I had to go grocery shopping. I had to make sure the finicky heating system was working, because it suddenly got cold. I had to buy a comforter for one bed. While doing all these things, I realized that certain people in my family--more than half--would not even notice I had done these things, much less thank me. I told two of them in an email that I was cleaning and getting the rooms ready. Neither one wrote back to thank me.
The reason I had to do all this is that the others are arriving late in the evening and would not have time to vacuum and fix up their own rooms, naturally. Some of these people do a lot for my elderly dad and so I put extra attention into making sure their room was nice. For the grumpy ones, not so much. Then I thought, "I wonder if mean people realize that their strategy is not working. That is, don't they realize that we cut corners and do as little as possible for them because they yell at us and insult us fairly often?"
The same goes for sexual romantic relationships. I would probably have continued taking care of the man I was with ten years ago if he had not been so mean. As it happened, I left, and a few years later, he developed cancer and died more or less alone in a hospice by a freeway in Houston.
A friend of mine just told me that she and her husband of 14 years have decided to go Poly. And when they did, the most surprising thing happened to her sex drive. It exploded. Not because of titillating conversation, or jealousy, (because it wasn’t her idea), or even because the new partner was queer and wanted to fuck her too. It exploded because suddenly, her husband wasn’t expecting to have all of his emotional needs met exclusively by her anymore.
She was able to see him for who he actually is again because he wasn’t in a "disappointed/sad state" all the time. This emotional break from service also gave her the space to get back touch with her own needs, instead of resenting him which killed her sex drive. Granted, polyamory isn’t for everyone, but when it works, it does highlight the truth that men are conditioned to expect everything from their partners, and women are conditioned to provide it, and how this paradigm fucks everything up for both of them.
It’s a terrible thing that straight guys don’t have friends that they can actually talk about their feelings with though. Maybe if they did, their dicks wouldn’t have to be their main emotional focal point? Imagine if women did that same thing with their female friends? In order to really connect or share a feeling, we’d need to be touching each other first?
omg--love this. Thanks for sharing this story!